A record of a conversation between I. V. Stalin and the Prime Minister of the Polish government, St. Mikolajczyk.
Kremlin on August 3, 1944.
Attended by: from the Polish side - Grabsky, Romer, Mnishek.
From the Soviet-tov. V. M. Molotov, translator V. N. Pavlov.
Mikolajczyk declares that he is glad to be received by Marshal Stalin at a time when heroic Soviet armies are crushing Hitler's troops and liberating the territory of Poland.
Comrade Stalin notes that the international situation has developed in such a way that the Soviet Government considers it its duty to help liberate Poland.
Mikolajczyk declares that if it were not for the Soviet Union, Poland would still be under German oppression for a long time.
Comrade Stalin declares that the Red Army is indeed accelerating the liberation of Poland.
Mikolajczyk says he arrived almost on the anniversary of the Soviet-Polish treaty, which Sikorski has concluded on July 30, 1941 and which was not terminated. He, Mikolajczyk, I would like to say that Marshal Stalin, who is now liberating Poland, could win the hearts of the Polish people with a generous gesture towards Poland. He, Mikolajczyk will not hide from Marshal Stalin that the Poles, always trusting Marshal Stalin, at the same time feel a sense of fear of what is about to happen. He, Mikolajczyk, however, wants to introduce himself to Marshal Stalin not as a diplomat, but as a figure who came out of the peasants, who himself has reached the position that he now occupies. He, Mikolajczyk has no specific ambitions, except the desire to serve his homeland. At one time, as Chairman of the Union of Peasant Youth, he participated in Slavic congresses attended by Poles, Bulgarians, and Czecho-Slovaks, where the question of how the Slavic peoples should protect themselves from German expansion was discussed. He, Mikolajczyk, as a resident of the western regions of Poland, knows the Germans well, their evil intentions, their desire to destroy the Slavic peoples. He, Mikolajczyk, came here to discuss all the issues with Marshal Stalin. He, Mikolajczyk, would like to discuss the question of joint action against the Germans now and in the future, so that the Germans can never start a new war.
The second question he Mikolajczyk wanted to discuss with Marshal Stalin is not so critical, it is regarding the treaty about the administration of Poland.
Thirdly, he, Mikolajczyk, I would like to hear from Marshal Stalin how he views the issue of the Soviet-Polish border. Finally, he, Mikolajczyk, I would like to inform Marshal Stalin that on August 1 the Polish underground army began an open struggle against the Germans in Warsaw and that he, Mikolajczykwould like to go to Warsaw as soon as possible and establish a government there based on the four parties represented in the current Polish government in London and the Polish Workers ' Party, i.e., the Communists. He, Mikolajczykthinks that after the liberation of Poland, the country will hold elections on a democratic basis, a new constitution will be adopted, the president of the republic will be elected and new borders of Poland will be approved. Those are the main questions that he, Mikolajczyk, would like to discuss this with Marshal Stalin. With regard to current affairs, he would like to ask Marshal Stalin to direct that the Soviet troops provide assistance to the internal Polish army so that it can continue its struggle against the Germans.
Comrade Stalin replies, that all the issues described by Mikolajczyk are of great political and practical importance. But in his questions Mikolajczyk bypasses the existence of the Polish Committee for National Liberation, with which the Soviet Government has signed an agreement on administration. Is it possible to turn a blind eye to this fact?
Mikolajczyk replies that there may be a misunderstanding. Speaking of the second question, he, Mikolajczykwas referring to the treaty between the Polish Government and the Soviet Government. But this question is not relevant, since the agreement on administration has already been concluded between the Polish Committee for National Liberation and the Soviet Government. He, Mikolajczyk, would like to say in this connection that when the Soviet troops enter Warsaw, they will be visited by the Deputy Prime Minister of the Polish government and the commandant of the underground army, who are responsible for the administration of Poland. He, Mikolajczyk, is sure that the Soviet authorities will not do any harm to these individuals. It would be good if the four Polish parties could still have influence and work to restore the Polish administration.
Comrade Stalin declares that, in order to avoid misunderstanding, he must state that the Soviet Government has no intention of determining how many parties will participate in the Polish government. This is not a matter for the Soviet Government. Of course, the Soviet Government would like to see democratic parties represented in the Polish Government. But this issue must be resolved by the Poles themselves. The Soviet Government will not interfere in this matter. If it is interesting to know the opinion of the Soviet Government, then he, com. Stalin might say that it would be happy if all the democratic parties in Poland formed a bloc. The Soviet government would support this bloc.
Mikolajczyk says there are four parties represented in the Polish government. All these parties are democratic. In 1939, during the stay of leaders of these parties in France, the Sejm was dissolved and it was decided that the President of the republic had to sign a statement stating that he renounced his rights. He, Mikolajczykwould like these four parties to participate in the government that will be created in Warsaw.
Comrade Stalin says that they must agree on what is to be discussed. If Mikolajczyk wants to talk about the force that has emerged in Poland in the form of the Polish National Liberation Committee, then they need to discuss the issue of relations between the Polish government in London and the PCNO.
Mikolajczyk says that he is ready to discuss all issues.
Comrade Stalin declares that Churchill wrote to him that Mikolajczyk wants to come to Moscow, and I asked him if he com. Stalin agrees to accept Mikolajczyk. At the same time, Churchill said that he believes that the main purpose of the trip of Mikolajczyk is unite the Poles, and expressed the hope that he, com. Stalin, will help the Poles in this matter. He, Comrade. Stalin agreed to do it. In his opinion, they can talk about the relationship between two forces related to Poland. This issue is hard to get around.
Mikolajczyk replies that he doesn't want to get around this issue. He wants to be in Warsaw.
Comrade Stalin replies that Warsaw is in German's hands now.
Mikolajczyk says that he thinks Warsaw will soon be liberated, and he will be able to create a new government there, based on all the forces of Poland.
Comrade Stalin notes: "I pray {yes, he actually mentioned God} for it to be so"
He, com Stalin remarks: that the Soviet Government does not acknowledge the London Polish government and that it has ceased all contacts with it. At the same time, the Soviet Government has actual relations and an agreement with the PCNO. These facts must be taken into account.
Mikolajczyk asks if he should understand this in the sense that all routes to Poland are closed to the Polish government in London.
Comrade Stalin replies that this must be understood in the sense that before negotiating to Milolaiczik as a leader of Polish Government it would be good to stop having two governments - one in London and one in Holm. He, com. Stalin thinks that it would be good to unite forces and to form the temporary government. Poles themselves must do this.
Mikolajczyk declaresthat he is not so far removed from Marshal Stalin in his point of view, but he makes a proposal for the cooperation of the four parties with their friends from the PKNO, since the PKNO represents only a part of the Polish people. Marshal Stalin is well aware that Witoe cannot represent the Polish Peasant Party, as he ceased to be a member of it in 1929.
Comrade Stalin says that the criterion of Mikolajczyk is wrong for determining the popularity of a political figure. Poland has been under the heel of the German occupiers for five years. During the war and occupation, new people grew up in Poland. References to old authorities don't matter anymore. Poland has turned left {in political sense} in four years. New authorities must be reckoned with. He, Comrade. Stalin, for example, could mention the Red Army as an example, where new people have grown up, where old authorities have receded into the background. If someone had come to them before the Soviet-German war with the statement that in three years there would be such generals as Rokossovsky, Chernyakhovsky, Konev, Eremenko, Bagramyan, they would not have
believed it and would have laughed. Old authorities have moved away, new ones have appeared. War and occupation is a big engine. You can not refer to the old authorities. We need to find new people. These new people include Osubka-Moravian.
Mikolajczyk says he agrees with this. But Vitos, in his opinion, does not represent "Stronnitstvo Ludowe".
Comrade Stalin observes that this is a formal and not necessarily correct point of view.
Mikolajczyk declares that he could have named to com. Stalin, a number of young people who are actively involved in the Polish government. He, Mikolajczyk, recently met in Cairo with a young Polish man who came from Poland. In the Polish government, the Department of Education is headed by a young man. Many women lead the work
of servicing the Polish troops, publishing literature, etc. These young Polish men created an underground army in Poland.
Comrade Stalin says that the Red Army has discovered that the detachments of this Polish underground army are very weak. It is reported that the Polish underground army has no artillery, no aircraft, no tanks. It does not fight the Germans. Detachments of this army are hiding in the woods. When the representatives of these detachments are asked why they do not fight the Germans, they say that it is not so easy, because if they kill one German, the Germans kill ten Poles for it. Among the leaders of these detachments, there are quite a few unclever people. Recently, in Holm, one of these chiefs announced the mobilization of the Polish male population from 16 to 65 years of age into the army. This is a very dangerous thing. The population was outraged by the announced mobilization, as they believe that the Germans were driven out and that the war is over. The outrage was all the greater because the mobilization announcement came at the height of the summer harvest. This chief had to be stopped to prevent the mobilization. There are also some leaders who announce to the Polish population that the German occupants have left and the Russian ones have come.
Others spread literature hostile to the U.S.S.R., which he, com. Stalin, can show to Mikolajczyk, if he wishes so. What should the Soviet authorities do with such people?
Mikolajczyk replies that the Krayovy Army really has no tanks. The Krayovy Army fought through acts of sabotage. Recently, on the orders of the London government, many factories were blown up near Lviv and several train wrecks were organized. All detachments of the Polish Krayovy Army in the Wilno region, Novogrudok and Volhynia fought the
Germans all the time, despite the breakdown in relations between the Polish and Soviet governments. To him, Mikolajczyk, it is difficult to list all the acts of sabotage, but they are all registered at the Allied headquarters in London. These facts show that the Polish People's Army really wants to fight the Germans.
Comrade Stalin remarks that he believes that the Polish People's Army wants to fight the Germans. But how can she do that if she doesn't have weapons?
Mikolajczyk claims that the Polish People's Army consists of detachments of 20 people each, scattered throughout Poland. As the front approaches, these detachments unite to strike the Germans.
Comrade Stalin says that their troops met two divisions of this army at Kovel, but when their troops approached them, it turned out that they could not fight the Germans, because they had no weapons.
Mikolajczyk sayshe agrees that these detachments do not have the weapons for modern warfare. But in Lubelsk has three divisions. In the underground, the men of these divisions made their own machine guns.
Comrade Stalin says that detachments of the Polish underground army do not fight against the Germans, because their tactics consist in taking care of themselves and then showing up when the British or Russians come to Poland.
Mikolajczyk claims that before the fall of France, the Kraiowy Army was openly active, but after the fall of France, the Kraiowy Army began to engage in sabotage activities according to a plan developed by the Allied headquarters in London. These diversions do great harm to the Germans. From the words of I. V. Stalin about the lack of
weapons in the Kraiowy Army, he, Mikolajczykcan only conclude that the Kraiowy Army needs to be given weapons.
Comrade Stalin declares that the Soviet Union is a country at war with Germany on the territory of Poland. The Red Army is interested in a quiet rear. If there are two Polish governments and two systems, it can do great harm to the Red Army's struggle against the Germans. If the Polish government in London intends and considers it expedient to come to an agreement with the PCNO and create one Polish government, the Soviet Government is ready to help this. If the Polish government considers this undesirable, the Soviet Government will be forced to cooperate with the PCNO. Such is the position of the Soviet Government, which he, com. Stalin, asks to be considered.
Mikolajczyk replies that the Polish government is ready to come to an agreement with the PCNO and with those who fought in Poland during the five years of occupation.
Mikolajczyk askshow com. Stalin imagines the borders of Poland.
Comrade Stalin replies that the Soviet Government considers that the eastern border of Poland should follow the Curzon Line, 11 the western border should follow the Oder River, leaving the city of Stettin to the Poles, and the Königsberg district and the city of Königsberg to the Russians.
Mikolajczyk saysthat, therefore, Lviv and Vilna remain part of the Soviet Union.
Comrade Stalin declares that, according to Lenin's ideology, all peoples are equal. He, Comrade. Stalin does not want to offend either Lithuanians, Ukrainians, or Poles.
Mikolajczyk declares that the loss of Lviv and Vilna will be an insult to the Polish people. The Polish people will not understand this, because they believe that Poland should not suffer any damage, if only because there was not a single quisling in Poland.
Comrade Stalin observes that this will not damage Poland. If they talk about the damage, he will be able to report that a large group of Russian nationalists accuse the Soviet Government of ruining Russia because Russia does not include Poland, which used to be part of it. If you listen to all sorts of accusations, you can get
completely confused. The line Curzon was not invented by Poles or Russians. It emerged as a result of an arbitration award made by the Allies in Paris. The Russians did not participate in the development of the line Curzon. He, Comrade. Stalin, at the same time, must say that there are few Russians who will agree to the fact that Bialystok is ceded to Poland, as it turns out along the line Curzon.
Mikolajczyk declares that he is sure that if com. If Stalin makes a generous gesture, he will receive the gratitude of the Polish people and find an ally in them.
Comrade Stalin declares that Lviv is surrounded by Ukrainian villages. The Soviet government cannot offend Ukrainians. It should be borne in mind that there are many Ukrainians in the Red Army and that they all fight well against the Germans. Ukrainians will not tolerate the Soviet Government giving up Lviv.
Grabski who joined the conversation, claims that since 1906 he was the head of the anti-German and Russophile movement in Poland. For this, he was often called Moskal. He, Grabski, believes that the friendship of the Polish and Russian peoples is the most important thing for the Slavs' struggle against German expansion. The Polish people will be very grateful to Marshal Stalin for moving Poland's borders further west. But he, Grabsky, asks to consider the following. No allied state will come out of this war reduced in its territory. Poles are well aware of how important it is that there should be no Ukrainian or Belarusian issues in Poland. On the other hand, he, Grabski, would ask to take into account that if Polish state comes out of the war reduced, the Polish people will feel offended. Marshal Stalin spoke of a strong and independent Poland. But if he were to add to this statement that Poland would not come out of this war reduced, then the Russian people and the Soviet Union would be guaranteed the cooperation of the Polish people.
Comrade Stalin says that if they approach the problem of Slavism from a historical point of view, they can see that as a result of the First World War, Poland was resurrected and restored. He, Comrade. Stalin thinks that as a result of the current war, especially the Ukrainian and Belarusian peoples will be resurrected, and it would be unfair to offend them.
Grabsky states, that the Belarusian and Ukrainian peoples will not be offended if the disputed territories are divided in proportion to the population of Polish, Belarusian and Ukrainian nationalities and then resettled.
Comrade Stalin declaresthat the Poles will receive Breslau instead of Lviv. They will have enough ore and coal in Silesia.
Grabski says that with the loss of Lviv, there will be no oil in Poland.
Comrade Stalin replies that there is a lot of oil on the opposite slope of the Carpathians. The Poles need to explore these deposits. In addition, the Poles will have chemical plants in Silesia for the production of synthetic fuel.
Grabsky says that Lviv is associated with a lot of historical and other traditions.
Comrade Stalin asks what to do with the Ukrainians.
Grabsky replies that they have Kiev.
Comrade Stalin notesthat the Poles have Krakow and Warsaw.
Comrade Stalin declares, that it was the first time Poles and Russians had marched together at the Battle of Grunwald, when they defeated the Germans. Then the Poles and Russians had quarrels. In the 17th century, under Tsar Alexey Mikhailovich, there was a Minister of Foreign Affairs Ordin-Nashchekin, who proposed to conclude an alliance with the Poles. They kicked him out for that. Now a turn is needed. The war has taught our peoples a lot.
Grabsky agrees.
Comrade Stalin declares that if Mikolajczyk has no questions, then the conversation can be finished at 12 o'clock.
Mikolajczyk replies that he has no further questions. He would only like to ask how Tov was. Stalin intends to finally settle the question of the Soviet-Polish border.
Comrade Stalin replies that he thinks this question will need to be resolved when there is a unified Polish government. To do this, he Mikolajczyk will need to talk to representatives of the Polish National Liberation Committee.
Mikolajczyk repliesthat he is ready to do it.
Comrade Stalin replies that com. Molotov will organize the meeting between Mikolajczyk and representatives of the Polish National Liberation Committee. Probably, this meeting can take place in the next one or two days in Moscow or Kiev, depending on where it will be convenient for Mikolajczyk.
Comrade Stalin asks: Mikolajczyk, how they serve him and the people accompanying him.
Mikolajczyk thankstov. Stalin for his hospitality.
The conversation lasted 2 hours and 30 minutes.
